[→Ne♠Ra←]

rinoa is ultimecia....so?

This post has been edited by ~IROY~: 11 November 2007 - 12:18 PM

[Iso]

This game came out when I believe, I was in 6th or 7th grade. It really says something about the game that people can still debate over aspects of it after all this time.

[dada]

Solar Oni, on Nov 10 2007, 11:08 PM, said:

No need to get all worked up, brother. It's an old theory. It seemed plausible at the time this thread was started, but has since been proven to be incorrect.

If only literature were so easy.

Keep in mind that a work can be subject to reasonable speculation regardless of the author's intent. Everything is subjective. Ultimately, people are going to believe what they want to, and see what they want to. There's nothing wrong with it. But here we have substantial evidence on both sides of the argument; nothing has really been "disproved," people have just made conflicting points. Doesn't mean one side if more correct than the other. We're not dealing with hard facts and empirical data, we're dealing with fiction.

[xin]

Wayfarer, on Nov 12 2007, 12:07 AM, said:

If only literature were so easy.

Keep in mind that a work can be subject to reasonable speculation regardless of the author's intent. Everything is subjective. Ultimately, people are going to believe what they want to, and see what they want to. There's nothing wrong with it. But here we have substantial evidence on both sides of the argument; nothing has really been "disproved," people have just made conflicting points. Doesn't mean one side if more correct than the other. We're not dealing with hard facts and empirical data, we're dealing with fiction.

ilu, even with a fancy new name :inlove:

[dada]

You know what, I love you too, xin. I'm not going to hide it anymore.

[immortalwombat]

i had to make an account simply to reply to this audacious topic. frankly i'm appaled by the concepts suggested. i truly suggest people play all of the final fantasys to figure out the overall concept of the games.

not many things make me so disappointed in society as the beleif in cock-and-bull theory's, in order to avoid harsh truths, this happens to be one of the biggest.

final fantasy 9 does a great job of explaining the overall theology of all final fantasys in the final monologue verses teh final enemy. it speaks about the futility of making the choice to follow after love and hope, because even when you win a battle, someone else comes out as evil to smite it, for the sake of profit.

final fantasy 8 carrys this theory on to a new degree of twists and turns with ultimecia seeking her fulfillment through things apart from love (this is shown in everything from the gf griever, which is widely known as teh greatest and most powerful gf in existance, to her pursuit of angel wings (tho perhaps demonic ones)).

the reason she is so "similar" to rinoa is because she is teh complete antithesis of what rinoa is. rinoa being the embodiment of love, being able to care for seifer early on, despite his obvious arrogance and rudeness, and seeking out the one guy at the ball who had talent but wouldnt show it. love is being capable of stepping out and caring about people who are too busy "LIVING" to be loving.

the reality that people seem sooooooooooooooooooooooo incredibly unable to face, is that in order to love, you must face a loosing battle, and know that no matter the outcome you do lose overall. to defeat ultimecia, as with all other sorceresses of the past in the game, they would merely be unlocking the same "insanity" of power, and unleashing it upon another unwise victim. and upon defeating her, most likely lose thier own way back to the non-time compressed world, essentially giving up thier lives, and thier loves, for the sake of nothing more than "hoping" something better occurs this time upon defeating a sorceress.

the theory of rinoa being ultimecia, at its core does nothing more than presume that the outcome is futile, and that people who love give up and become evil after so much time.

while the alternative theory is sheer reality, that people who are capable of love maintain it, and are destroyed by those who cant. because those who cant love cant allow love to exist, when they have no power over it. in the same way that a tyrannical dictator cannot suffer their rebellious subjects to live, or prosper. because its out of thier control.

i dont mind normally when people debate theorys in games, or in life for that matter, as most things are not concrete enough to say at any real face value that they are absolute truth. however, its not really a matter of what you beleive in, its a matter of why. and it simply angers me to see people believing in something in order to ignore the validity of fighting a battle you will loose for the sake of hope.

[Lejin]

Hi, this thread too caught my attention and so I registered to explain why Linoa = Ultimecia (or Rinoa, depending of the language of your game). When I played the second time through the game, this idea come in my mind.

Someone linked Sir Bahamut FAQ as a PROOF to why Linoa <> Ultimecia. I'm sorry, but this FAQ prooves nothing and it's quite ironic to evoke Occam's Razor principle when you, in fact, don't apply it. I answer to the only problematic counter-argument of Sir Bahamut being "Rinoa is dead by Ultimecia times" later in my message : she didn't age because she was in Esthar mausoleum, a powerfull seal using cryogenic technology (as stated by the game). There is otherwise no valid counter-argument I can see, but if you have some in mind, state them so I could answer.

First, you should use the japanese version as canon. All lines I quote are translated from the japanese script or from the american script.

So, I think that the R=U theory is the simplest way to answer all the questions one can ask about Ultimecia (why is she mad, why did she build her castle at the orphanage, why her GF is named after the ring of Squall, why does she know Squall, why does she have wings like Rinoa and eventually, why does she want to play with the fabric of Time, ...) and I'll try to explain why.

I The Mausoleum episode

1/ Ultimecia name in the Japanese version is Artemisia, and it has already been reminded in this thread the mythological reference behind it (something involving a queen, a mausoleum, love and death). The team behind FF8 love mythology, as they have stated in an interview about FFXIII which would have a strong mythological background (sorry, no reference here)

2/ When Linoa and Squall come back from space, there is a black screen in the game with text, only moment like that in the whole game. It's a key moment, and Squall asks himself what should he do (let Linoa go or not) and that he doesn't know for the first time (of the game) what to do.

"[On a blacked-out screen:]

Squall: (I don't know what to do... This is just another crossroad
in my life. But, for the first time, I don't know which way
to go. I've come this far because I've...fallen for you.
......Rinoa...... Now...am I just supposed to let you go?"
"

That's where the timeline splits :

a/ The one reality where Squall didn't save Linoa. Squall died, many centuries later Linoa "escape/awake" from the mausoleum and "grieves". After sometimes, she becomes mad and forget who she really was, her GF Griever helping that (by the way, the name of the GF is again one more thing to add to the R=U theory). Thus Ultimecia is born
b/ The one where he did, and well, defeats Ultimecia later.

As in many time travel stories, there is a hole here.

Later, this hole is filled with Squall killing Ultimecia, and bringing her by his memory to Edea in the orphanage. There she gave her power to Edea who later will give her power to Rinoa.

II The lines of Ultimecia and her madness

Being Rinoa in the past, that's quite a good reason to become mad because when she woke up from her long frozen sleep in the mausoleum, she found out that Squall is dead and long gone. Griever then was born from the ring of Squall (as stated below, she still has it), and that's how she forgot herself little by little.

Ultimecia seems to know about Squall, but speaks of him with some madness. At the battle of the university, and more importantly, at end of the game ! First, she talks about "Seed", but then at the end of the battle, she has very strange lines.

At galbadia :
"Sorceress Edea: "So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD
destined to face me?"
Squall: (What is she talking about?)
Sorceress Edea: "I must say that I am impressed. ...An impressive
nuisance. Your life ends here, SeeD.""

Legendary ? How one does become legendary ? By being dead and let some centuries pass for instance.

"
Ultimecia: "Reflect on your... Childhood..."
Ultimecia: "Your sensation... Your words... Your emotions..."
Ultimecia: "Time... It will not wait..."
Ultimecia: "No matter... ...how hard you hold on. It escapes you..."
Ultimecia: "And..."
"
How exactly these could be the lines of an ultimate evil sorceress ? They make much more sense in the mouth of R/U.


III The origin of Griever
Griever has exactly the same name that the ring you give to Rinoa (well, "give"...). There's few scenes about this ring, highlighting the meaning of it. If I remember correctly, Squall don't get his ring back when Rinoa is sent to the mausoleum (there's even a dialog text about it :

"Rinoa: "...... Oh... I still have your ring."
Squall: "You keep it."
Rinoa: "You sure?"
Squall: "Yeah..."
"
"Sorceress Ultimecia: "The most powerful GF... ...You shall...
...SUFFER...! HAHAHA..."
Sorceress Ultimecia: "The GF's true power... To show you...! Griever!
Make them bleed!"
"

The fact that Griever is the most powerful GF is only the consequence of Rinoa/Ultimecia building up her power for such a long time. It's not really relevant. No, more interesting is that "Griever" is a GF of suffering, like how Rinoa suffered when she found out Squall died.

IV The death of Ultimecia, why Ultimecia choosed Squall/Rinoa era?
Ultimecia was being sent by Squall memories at Edea orphanage when killed by Squall. Later, at Squall&Linoa era, she took control of Edea, and much later, of Rinoa. Thus, the circle of time traveling is closed.

But strangely, Edea/Ultimecia didn't go after Ellone in the youth of Ellone. That's because Ultimecia was inconsciously interested in the Squall/Linoa era and wanted to revive these times.
I'll like to emphasize that this is a small detail and there's already a hole in the story about that : we don't know how Edead was possessed by Ultimecia !

V Various unexplainables things

1/Rinoa and Ultimecia have some similarities in the chara design.
They have both wings and they are the only ones !
2/Seifer is choosen as the knight of Ultimecia. Seifer was also the first love of Linoa
3/The location of Ultimecia castle

It's actually the place where Squall and Linoa promised to meet again !

"Rinoa: "Promised?"
Squall: "I'll be waiting for you. If you come here, you'll find me. I
promise."
Rinoa: "I'll be here, too. It's a promise! Thanks, Squall! Next time,
we'll meet for sure!"
"



Now, about some counter-arguments classicaly stated against this theory :

1/ Sorceress age and die like humans. Ultimecia wasn't born at Squall/Rinoa era (stated by Odone)

In the timeline where Squall don't save Rinoa, she ends up frozen in the mausoleum. Thus age isn't a matter. Rinoa didn't age while being kept in the mausoleum. In fact, that's the one true weakness of Sir Bahamut faq which makes everythinig he wrote fall apart. In his faq, Sir Bahamut said

"While one might still yet argue that Rinoa could have been placed in the same
kind of seal that Adel was, and that this chronologically preserved her far
into the future until she was released, such a notion is absolutely absurd.
It's not supported or suggested by the game to occur, and there's already a
perfectly valid, well-supported, and strongly-hinted suggestion concerning
Ultimecia's origin anyway, with said origin not being dependent on Rinoa in
any form whatsoever."

Well, there's a really strong suggestion in the game about that : Rinoa is indeed placed in the same kind of seal of Adel in the story, because you have to deliver her of that Seal ! That's where the timesplit occurs by the way : two reality, one where Squall delivers Linoa, and the one where he doesn't.

Also, the fact that "Ultimecia wasn't born" at Squall/Rinoa era can be taken in a metaphorical sense.


2/ Rinoa powers came from Edea
That's not exactly true, Rinoa powers came from both Edea and Ultimecia, since Ultimecia at the end of the game gave hers to Edea.



If you see solid others possible counter-argument, let me now.

Now,I'll remind various facts to support the R/U theory :

I The mausoleum episode.
Which is 1/ A Reference to Artemisia mythologic fact. Also, if you've read things about FFXIII, you know how the creators are attached to mythology
2/ Also the point in the story where there is a blackscreen and Squall wondering wheter he should free Rinoa or not => timesplit
a/ The one reality where Ultimecia is created because Squall let Rinoa in the seal
b/ The one where Squall kills Ultimecia (in this one, Squall save Rinoa)

II Ultimecia lines which indicates madness and a vague knowledge of Squall

III The griever GF and the strong reference to the ring at various times of the story

IV Ultimecia's death closes the timeloop.

V Various unexplainable things
1/ Chara-design (both wings, and they're the only sorceresses like that !)
2/ Seifer choice by Ultimecia
3/ The location of Ultimecia castle (which is the place where Rinoa promised that she would meet Squall)


Also, a little summary of the timeplot of FF8 :

1/Edea/Ultimecia take control of Galbadia and seek Ellone to do the time compression. She also wants to exterminate the SEED.
2/Squall free Edea, and Ultimecia take possession of Rinoa
3/In space, Rinoa delivers Adel
4/Back to earth, black screen and a (false) choice for Squall : should he let Rinoa go and let her be jailed in the mausoleum ?
a/ Yes -> Rinoa is sealed like Adel. Centuries later, she is free again and realized Squall has gone. Griever is born from Squall ring and Rinoa forgets herself. She become Ultimecia, build a castle at the orphanage place.
b/ No -> Squall go kill Ultimecia
5/When Ultimecia is killed, she is brought by Squall memories at the orphanage. There, Ultimecia gave her power to Edea, which will be passed by Ultimecia will to Rinoa.

Eventually, the only way you could convince me that R <> U, is to answer all these questions about Ultimecia which would have zero background otherwise
(why is she mad, why did she build her castle at the orphanage, why her GF is named after the ring of Squall, why does she know Squall, why does she have wings like Rinoa and eventually, why does she want to play with the fabric of Time, ...)

This post has been edited by Lejin: 12 September 2008 - 11:31 AM

[Griffinknight]

I was interested in the theory and I did a bit of thinking, and I wondered where did Ultimecia's powers originate. Think about it, at the start Ultimecia died and gave her powers to Edea, who subsequently gave them to Rinoa. Rinoa could not possibly become Ultimecia as then there would be no starting point for her powers, therefore Ultimecia gained her powers from elsewhere and cannot be Rinoa.
You could argue that Edea's powers looped back to her but her powers were Ice based, not time/compression based, so they are different powers.

[Griffinknight]

"II The lines of Ultimecia and her madness

Being Rinoa in the past, that's quite a good reason to become mad because when she woke up from her long frozen sleep in the mausoleum, she found out that Squall is dead and long gone. Griever then was born from the ring of Squall (as stated below, she still has it), and that's how she forgot herself little by little.

Ultimecia seems to know about Squall, but speaks of him with some madness. At the battle of the university, and more importantly, at end of the game ! First, she talks about "Seed", but then at the end of the battle, she has very strange lines.

At galbadia :
"Sorceress Edea: "So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD
destined to face me?"
Squall: (What is she talking about?)
Sorceress Edea: "I must say that I am impressed. ...An impressive
nuisance. Your life ends here, SeeD.""

Legendary ? How one does become legendary ? By being dead and let some centuries pass for instance."

After time compression time reverted back to a linear form, this means that Squall had defeated Ultimecia, but hadn't yet in the now linear timeline (the present). In brief, he would defeat Ultimecia in a few hundred years when time compressed at Ultimecia's end. Therefore SeeD of the present would know that Squall would defeat Ultimecia and after he died continued to remember that he would defeat Ultimecia in the future. This is how Ultimecia knew who Squall was, because SeeD in the future remembered him winning in the present.
This creates a sligh

[Lejin]

Griffinknight, on Sep 15 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

After time compression time reverted back to a linear form, this means that Squall had defeated Ultimecia, but hadn't yet in the now linear timeline (the present). In brief, he would defeat Ultimecia in a few hundred years when time compressed at Ultimecia's end. Therefore SeeD of the present would know that Squall would defeat Ultimecia and after he died continued to remember that he would defeat Ultimecia in the future. This is how Ultimecia knew who Squall was, because SeeD in the future remembered him winning in the present.
This creates a sligh

I'm half convinced, because I think this vicious circle is broken as shown in the final movie sequence in which you see a desperate Squall realizing Linoa is Ultimecia : their eyes are put together in some frames, Squall also remembers the dance scene of the BGU, but he dances again in the same room where he defeated Ultimecia and with a faceless Linoa ! Then Linoa comes and break this "curse" and save Squall.
I agree that your explanation holds (though the time paradox in it is huge and ugly), but it doesn't explain the origin of Griever and all other story part related (the ring, the name, the scene at the orphanage where Linoa and Squall promise to meet each other, the mausoleum and the mythological reference to the name of Artemisia=Ultimecia and all other stuffs).
Also, if Ultimecia knew Squall was the SEED who would've defeated her, she would have tried much much harder to kill him (like maybe order his immediate execution while he was detained at Galbadia ?).

Eventually, you didn't provide any explanation for those lines

"
Ultimecia: "Reflect on your... Childhood..."
Ultimecia: "Your sensation... Your words... Your emotions..."
Ultimecia: "Time... It will not wait..."
Ultimecia: "No matter... ...how hard you hold on. It escapes you..."
Ultimecia: "And..."
"
They are unexplainable from the point of view of the theory that Rinoa <> Ultimecia (if Rinoa <> Ultimecia, then Ultimecia is at the end a really superficial vilain, with no background and an unknown motivation to destroy the world).

I find my "pants" timeline story better and more fitting.

Quote

I was interested in the theory and I did a bit of thinking, and I wondered where did Ultimecia's powers originate. Think about it, at the start Ultimecia died and gave her powers to Edea, who subsequently gave them to Rinoa. Rinoa could not possibly become Ultimecia as then there would be no starting point for her powers, therefore Ultimecia gained her powers from elsewhere and cannot be Rinoa.
You could argue that Edea's powers looped back to her but her powers were Ice based, not time/compression based, so they are different powers.

"Powers ice based" is an invalid argument, there's no way to tell from the story point of view what means exactly "sorceress powers" aside the ability to cast efficiently magic.

By the way, Edea was already a sorceress before receiving Ultimecia power. The starting point of Linoa being a sorceress is receiving Edea and Ultimecia powers (this is clearly stated in the game : after you return from space, Zell says "Edea isn't a sorceress anymore, she gave her powers away" then Squall thinks "To Linoa..."). This doesn't hold any contradiction with Ultimecia being Linoa because the starting "point" of Ultimecia appearance is the time paradox of the story (which exists anyway, independently of Ultimecia being Linoa or not).

This post has been edited by Lejin: 22 September 2008 - 10:33 PM

[Iso]

Lejin I'm amazed at your crazy in depth explainations. Before I really wasn't a supporter of the idea but you've changed my opinion. Of course without an actual statement from square it's all theory but everything you said makes sense.

This post has been edited by Iso: 23 September 2008 - 01:28 AM

[m0gm0gm00gle]

IMHO If I were Ultimecia and I knew that some kid from the past already killed/defeated me before I was even born(no brain activity/sign of life/can't even decide what I'm gonna be when I grow up, be a hero or a villain whatsoever), of course I'll get pissed and hunt down that kid and all his friends who helped him. It's like my fate was decided even before I was born, like a don't have a choice but die as a bad guy, and my life is meaningless. That alone would fill me up with anger and hatred towards everyone and everything. So I will decide to change the future by going back in the past.

Of course almost everyone who posted their comments have convincing proof and argument and I respect their opinion in this matter. And I hope they will do the same to mine.

FF8 is a fictional story alright, timetravelling and all. So if timetravelling is possible then there is a chance that Rinoa might be Ultimecia. But before you come up with things like that, you must study first the futile concepts of timetravel. I really don't buy those theories about timetravel but it doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.
I just take it as it is.

And for anyone who might post another comment to this thread and to those game/movie/novel/manga/anime makers out there, I would like to share my opinion about the concept/definition of time and more importantly its purpose. The purpose of time is so that everything, every event won't happen all at once, it's not something you can go back to. :|

[Sir Bahamut]

Right, every now and then I'll google for Rinoa=Ultimecia stuff to see if I can find stuff like this (since I'm a bit lame that way) and found this the other day. I dunno if anyone is still reading this, but I thought I should respond anyway.

Lejin, this is mainly addressed at your first post.

Firstly, it is clear that you haven't read my FAQ, or you would know the answer to those questions you feel require R=U, and you'd know that they don't require R=U at all. Further you'd know that stuff like Griever doesn't constitute an argument towards R=U at all. But I'll come back to that.

The main point I want to make is directed towards your suggestion that Rinoa could become Ultimecia since she may be frozen down in the Sorceress Memorial and then for some inexplicable reason get released in the future to become Ultimecia. You say that the game states that the Memorial uses cryogenic technology...yet in fact the game doesn't mention that at all, not even with Adel's seal. The only thing we know for sure is that it'd seal Rinoa's powers. There's actually nothing in the game which states that Rinoa could survive indefinitely while sealed. So that argument fails for that simple reason.

However, the argument fails for another reason too: it's never shown or implied that Rinoa will get sealed after the game ends! You talk about some sort of time split, but the only thing it seems to be based on is that the screen goes black in space for a short while. That's hardly evidence of something as strange and crucial as a time split! The screen going black doesn't mean you can insert whatever you want into that gap. So I can't take your time split idea seriously, since you simply pulled it out of thin air to accommodate R=U. The fact of the matter is that for R=U to even be possible, you have to invent a intricate scenario of what might happen after the game is over, a scenario based on nothing but your imagination. NOTHING in the game hints at Rinoa somehow making it to Ultimecia's era. The only way this could feasibly be justified is if sorceresses had longer lifespans, but they don't (according to Square themselves).

You might then suggest that the game offers enough hints at R=U and that it'd answer enough questions to make up for the made up scenario inserted to make it work. That however, is not true. Let's consider some of the things you mention.

1. Griever.

I will quote here directly from my FAQ:

"There may have been a "real" Griever that existed in stories that
Squall had known about, but the only suggestion offered in-game is that it is
a creature that Squall conceived of in his own mind, as Scan tells us that in
Squall's mind, Griever is the strongest GF:

"Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues
fighting without vanishing."

Further, Ultimecia's Witch Embodiment powers granted her the ability to reach
into other's minds and pull things out (as she often displays when completely
removing a character's stock of a certain type of Spell). In the case of
Griever, she simply manifested the thoughts she pulled from Squall's mind
regarding what he believed to be the most powerful being in existence. This
would be a great strategical move on Ultimecia's part. This is made even
more plausible when examining what the Japanese version has Ultimecia say:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu."

As you can see, Griever was clearly created there and then, and thus cannot
be used to form a link between Rinoa and Ultimecia. "


2. The Ultimecia = Artemisia link.

This is undoubtedly the only real 'hint' at anything, but unfortunately it's not nearly strong enough to imply R=U when it's the ONLY hint. Ultimecia's name is more likely to come from the spell Ultima, or the word "Ultimate", and there'd only be reason to think otherwise if more in the game supported R=U, which it doesn't.


3. Ultimecia knowing Squall and not pursuing Ellone in her youth.

Well, according to your theory, Rinoa forgot everything about herself and Squall when she became Ultimecia, so R=U doesn't explain why Ultimecia knows Squall at all. As has already been explained, it's overwhelmingly likely that she knew who he was because Squall went down in the history books as having saved the world by killing a sorceress named "Ultimecia".

The second point isn't a point at all, since we know there was a limit on how far back in time Ultimecia could go, so it may simply be that she was unable to go back further even if she wanted to.


4. Ultimecia and Rinoa's wings.


There's a simple explanation to the wings that doesn't require R=U. Rinoa and Ultimecia represent the same sorceress powers applied in different ways. Rinoa gets white wings because she does not use her powers to destroy and stays good. Ultimecia uses her powers for evil and so gets black wings. It's a symbol of their contrasting natures. There's absolutely no reason to read more into it than that. Also, Rinoa and Ultimecia don't really look similar enough to make it striking. All the female characters in FF8 look sort of similar to eachother since they were all designed by the same guy!

---

What about the other stuff? Can Ultimecia be given a motivation, a reason to park her castle by the orphanage, to say those final words of hers, to want to compress time and destroy SeeD? Yes. Very much so and without nearly as many assumptions as in R=U. Furthermore the alternate background for Ultimecia is supported entirely by the game AND the Ultimana guide (i.e. by Square). R=U on the other hand is never even vaguely alluded to in the Ultimania. In the end R=U just isn't strong enough to be a valid theory, certainly not once you become aware of the other background for Ultimecia which is actually quite explicitly alluded to in the game.

For all the details of this, as well as counter arguments to all other things I didn't deal with, please refer to the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ, which can be found here:

http://www.gamefaqs....ame/197343.html

It seems silly referring to it when it's been mentioned several times, but you clearly either haven't read the whole thing or you've just ignored the bits which don't fit in with your arguments. If you just read it again and especially the section called An Ultimecian Analysis (describing the non R=U background for Ultimecia) you'll see that R=U doesn't accomplish anything at all, and in addition needs a large stretch of the imagination to work.



PS: m0g, you may be interested in reading the Time section from the aforementioned FAQ. It's me and some others attempt at making timetravel etc. rigorous in FF8.

[justahengin87]

Solar Oni, on Jan 28 2005, 05:38 AM, said:

With a small ammount of speculateion, this idea of where Ultimecia obtained Greiver could help support the RU Theory. Consider this, if Ultimecia is unable to read minds- then in order to create Greiver from Squall's feelings, she would need to have already known how Squall feels about the lion on his ring. And, as far as we know, the only person he's told about that is Rinoa. Now here's where the speculation comes in. If Rinoa is Ultimecia then she must have lost her memories. And if she lost her memories then she wouldn't remember Greiver. It may be posipal, however, that seeing Squall in person caused her to regain a small tidbit of a memory, in particular- the ring and how Squall feels about it. Of course, it would be an equaly logical assumption that when Ultimecia took over Rinoa's body she was also able to see Rinoa's memories and got Greiver from there. Eather way it explains how she could get Greiver with or without mind reading skills.

If she remembered something about Squall, then she would have remembered that Squall and Co. defeated Ultimecia. So basically, if Rinoa were Ultimecia, the second she decided, "Hey, time compression!" was more of a thought along the lines of "Hey, time to die!"

[Python]

Square Enix already said that Rinoa is not Ultimecia ...